Select language:     » Introduction   Online Postcards   » Pick up a card   » Send a card   Monthly Poll   » Enter current poll   » View previous polls   Charts   » Album Charts   » Single Charts   » Musicvideo Charts   » Song Charts   » Remix Charts   Live Chat-room   » Login   » Register your nick   Mailinglist   » Sign up   » Member service   » View memberlist   Message Board   » Board rules   » Enter board   Guestbook   » View guestbook   » Sign guestbook Interactive  [Message Board] Author Subject:  Santa Claus Myra Reporter Assistant Post: 76 Posted 25-12-01 - 10:58 PM // Updated 25-12-01 - 11:04 PM First of all, ATL, I'm sure everyone knows that Christmas is celebrated as the Birthday of Jesus Christ. That's where the name comes from, there used to be a mas in church on the day his bithday is celebrated on. A mas for the Christ. Christ-mas. and then... Santa Claus, as well as your Sinterklaas -and also the Russian Grandda Frost. And the Finnish Joulupukki. I could continue the list... - takes the example from St. Nikolaus, the Catholic saint that protects children, and has brought presents to the children of the poor families. If you've read so much, then you should know that. And then.. to St. Nikolaus... He was the Bishop in a town called Myrna, that is in today's Turkey (now called Myra, quite close to Antalya, a bit west). I don't remember the exact years of his life. But that is where the myth of him started. And the day, St. Nikolaus' day is on December the 6th. I guess that was the day you once told me Sinterklaas comes on..?!! for me it's obvious all the old and nice men in every country who come and give gifts to children, are the one and the same guy. AND READ THIS: Even though I say they're the one and the same, they still have different names and they are pictured in a different way in every country's tradition!! So if today's Santa Claus and Sinterklaas are different, it doesn't mean they were totally different! And it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that one would copy the other one! this world wide tradition sure as hell has NOT started from Holland (sorry to crush your dreams) Maybe the name can be borrowed from Dutch, but... I'm quite sure they had found him without your precious help. According to Finnish tradition (and also something that people in Myra and the surroundings [=the origins of the myth] and a LOT of people worldwide believe) is that in the switch of the century (to 1900) he moved from the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) to Finland, the reason I don't know. Nowadays, Santa Claus (that is the only term I know in English, it doesn't mean that the Finnish Santa would be indentical with the American.. actually, not even close!) lives in Lappland, Finland. That is something that people come to look at from all around the world. So I'm not the only people claiming this. And I'm not trying to say that Finland would have a more important tradition than any other country. I'm just telling what we have. That there would be one person, that is the right Santa, I don't believe in. What is important, is to believe that there has once been a great man, who has wanted to help those in need! To believe in the spirit of St. Nikolaus. Just too bad the capitalistic world has ruined that. but as you said, Santa has nothing to do with Christmas itself. Every year I go to hear the mas in church, just to keep in mind the meaning of this special time. I'm not really religional, but I think that the things the Holy Bible tells is much more important than whether or not Sinterklaas can be indentified as Santa Claus. Oh.. and about happy children.. yeah, it is true that people in the western world spend way too much on christmas as they could also help the poor people with that money. But if it makes you feel better, I can tell you that yesterday, on xmas-eve, I was doing voluntary work at a party that one guy (!!!)arranges every year for the people who can't afford to have a party of their own, this year there were a bit over 3000 people around... Christmas should also be time for happiness and giving. I asked for one "material" present, and I got that one, so I'm happy. And I gave presents to the people I love, and I could see them become happy. So I shouldn't feel bad about it, should I? I would like to hear your opinions about the matter, actually. Even though I don't want to fight about Sinterklaas anymore, since even though I dn't know the Dutch tradition, I can be about 99.9% sure that I've got it right by now. and also.. I hope you will keep up the spirit and have a nice and peaceful xmas! ///Myra (and no, my nick does NOT come from the town in Turkey) Reporter & Assistant *Trying to remember and remind of the real reason of Christmas* 1st Reply posh Registered User Post: 4 Posted 26-12-01 - 01:01 AM OK - just a little note to ad something here... Not that I mean that Myra is worng or anything, but as she stated, THEIR "Father Christmas" is believed to live in Lappland, then he IS different than the Danish and the American one, who is belived to live at "Sukkertoppen" (SugarHill) in Greenland, so there one goes again. Anyways, what is the idea of arguing about something as stupid as this, as I believe that we all know that this person is fiction. Somthing I could hope A.T.L was, but rather unfortunately he's not :o( - nevertheless I'm not even sure that A.T.L is aware that Santa/Sinter or whomever - is fiction... - but he is - so... as Myra said: "Sorry to crush your dreams, mate!!" The P!Boy 2nd Reply A.T.L. Banned: 1 time(s) Registered User Post: 92 Posted 27-12-01 - 03:27 PM Here I am again ... (sadly for you! :P) Buttuh ... wowie! I didn't know that SINTERKLAAS doesn't excist ... DUH! Ofcourse I know! But MYRA ... you're right with that date of 6th December! But not with the year ... not for SINTERKLAAS! The tradition here: This is what happening real every year Sinterklaas is comming, from Spain, to the Netherlands in the 2nd or 3rd week of November! With a big boat, he arrives in a village somewhere in the Netherlands! Then he is going to ride on his white-horse through the streets, and he listen to songs of kids and he has to whatch little theaters which kids are doing etc. etc.! Then there are "ZWARTE PIETEN" ... they are his black helpers! They carry the presents and sweeties for the kids! The candy which they are giving mostly is "PEPERNOTEN" ... that are things made by "boulangeries" (thats in French ... don't know the English translation at the moment:S) little round things ... they tastes great!!!! After the ride through that city, sinterklaas get's his big book, and tells to every kid that they can put their shoe or wooden-shoe (Netherlands --> woodenshoes, clumbs, klompen) near the radiator ... and then the following morning there are presents in the shoes ... mostly a CHOCOLAT LETTER! On the evening of the 5th December, Sinterklaas brings every child presents, he is riding then on his white-horse, and the ZWARTE PIETEN are bringing the presents. On the 6th of December he is back home again, in Spain! There he celebrates his own birthday! SINTERKLAAS is a man who (if he would still lives) would be now older then 400 years!!! So it cannot be the person from MYRA where Myra was talking about. He is also NOT looking like SANTA! Santa is a fat man, SinterKlaas is also older ... and there are more important difference! This is the tradition around SINTERKLAAS The tradition around the CHRISTMAS THREE: Here in the Netherlands it was not usuall to have a christmass three, untill WORLD WAR 2 ... The German soldiers were celebrating Christmas in their "bunkers" ... the poor Dutch people saw that they had threes with lights in it ... and they thought it was looking so great! So they decided to do the same ... so after the 2nd world war, the Netherlands know the CHRISTMAS THREE ... which was first only known by the Americans and the German! BUT! In the MID-AGES, the lords of the castles were also celebrating CHRISTMAS with a three with little lights! They were doing that because the 21st of December is the shortest day here in the Netherlands (guess also on more places in the world), and with that three with little lights, they had a kind of sphere in their dark buildings. Only the rich lords/kings (etc) could pay those things! There is a reason why we use the threes for it! The threes are bigger then ourself, and are reaching the sky ... and they are in the ground, so they are kind of giants! They are the key between heaven and earth! Ow yeah ... I suddenly remind something ... There is another tradition here ... As the most "present-days" are in DECEMBER ... we here in Fryslan have also got another day ... we also have another saint!!!!!! SINT PIETER! He only comes to a city called GROU ... and ONLY the kids there believe in SINT PIETER ... so ... thats only one place in the whole netherlands where they celebrating something else then SINTER KLAAS! See ya later ... for more traditions like this ... just ask me! I love to tell about such things!!!!!!!!! 3rd Reply Myra Reporter Assistant Post: 77 Posted 27-12-01 - 09:46 PM OK.. Now... I never meant to say that all the characters would be the same! NEVER! What I meant, and still do, is that they all follow the lead of St. Nikolaus. Of course every country has their own ...fictional person... and we can't argue on who's tradition is more valuable. But ATL.. why wouldn't you go and FIND OUT where the tradition has come from!! If Sinterklaas really has his birthday on December the 6th... it would be a huge coincidence, since so did St. Nikolaus. anyway, I don't care what you believe or don't believe... but I have to say that I believe that the Dutch people have not invented Sinterklaas out of nothing... and if you would think a bit, you would see that too. ///Myra Reporter & Assistant 4th Reply posh Registered User Post: 5 Posted 28-12-01 - 01:15 AM OK... I think it's time - yet again - to put a halt to this subject. I rather liked ATL's story about the traditions in the Netherlands, but that's just me, as I'm very interested in what people are doing in other places - call it nosey, call it curious or call it someting else... I could do a whole story about the traditions in Denmark, but I won't. I just wish we could drop this subject, as noone will ever come to terms over things like that, and this wil end up like Sept. 11th, and ATL will fly an F-18 into some 3 stories high building in Finland or something, and we will all be debating Sinter Claas vs. Santa Claus vs. Julemanden as they are now discussing Allah and his likes o the news everyday. ATL will be the new bin Laden, and we will be the joined forced of -land... Is this really neccesary ? Now... you all go home and celebrate New Years 2001/2002 - there's nothing to see here - pass the streets everyone - it's O V E R !!! posh! 5th Reply A.T.L. Banned: 1 time(s) Registered User Post: 93 Posted 28-12-01 - 12:41 AM Hmm ... POSH ... do you know what you are saying there ??? I guess you are quite right in your thoughts about me ... but I will not fight because of things like a SINTERKLAAS or SANTA ... I will fight for MY native ... for the FRISIAN native ! And even then I will not use F18's ... (I do know F16s ... no F18s to be honest!) ... I will try to do it with WORDS ... and if there really would be no other way to get something under the Dutch gouvernment eyes ... then I will do it for sure WITHOUT a war! So don't call me a BIN LADEN! I am for peace ... BIN LADEN SUCKS! Okej?! See ya! Arjen! 6th Reply Phoenix Registered User Post: 43 Posted 02-01-02 - 04:05 PM Posh, I agree with you that its pointless to even argue about Santa Claus &co, but please don't use Sept.11th as a metaphor anymore. It's not from the anecdote. It was real, and it still hurts. I don't care who was behind it(Bin Laden or not) and what was the point of kamikadze (Alah, God, or American's materializm); the fact is that many people died, and even more lost their dear ones and this day is not to be mentioned lightly. Take care. Olga.